September 8, 2020
Josh, Chuck, and special guest host Steve Beaulieu sit down to talk about antagonists, from the mundane to the megalomaniacal.
Hosts: Josh Hayes, C. Steven Manley
[00:00] Opening remarks
[03:50] Sponsor #1: Deranged and Questing: The Necromancer’s Idiot Apprentice with Andy Peloquin [https://www.twitch.tv/andypeloquin]
[07:40] Weekly update—Sloppy Seconds Edition Steve: Kids are in school. Luna Missile Crisis in ebook/print in September. [https://amzn.to/32QSRsu] There’s a sequel in the works!
Chuck: A nice message on Instagram. Plugging away at Jack Dark #2. Listen to his Paragons Trilogy for free on Audible! [https://amzn.to/3hJbMvk]
Josh: Pitched a book idea to a major publisher with a short story for the tone. Almost finished with Tranquility #1. Looking for beta readers.
[19:20] Main Event—Antagonists! Example: Benjamin Linus from Lost [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Linus] Example: Sand dan Glotka from Joe Abercrombie’s First Law Trilogy [https://amzn.to/34NJj3Y]
-Low key vs. Over the top villains.
-Manipulative villains are interesting rather than over-the-top Example: Captain Hook in Peter Pan [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Hook]
-Steve wants to hate the Joker, no sympathize with him (as in the new Joker movie) [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt7286456/]
-You can call a character evil. Sometimes readers just want that. Example: Voldemort in JK Rowling’s Harry Potter series [https://amzn.to/2YSomBd]
Ramsey Bolton in George RR Martin’s A Song of Ice and Fire series [https://amzn.to/2Ga4MJY]
-The sense of ‘Me First’ mentality to the villain. You don’t need to sympathize, though you can understand.
-You don’t have to hate the bad guys, but you can see both sides. Example: The Americans [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt2149175/]
-Antagonist vs. Villain
-You can have protagonists do villainous things Example: The Punisher [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt5675620/]
-Difference between having to do something bad and wanting to do something bad. Example Dakota Meyer [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dakota_Meyer] Example: Alonzo in Training Day [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0139654/] Example: Thanos in Marvel Cinematic Universe [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4154796/]
-What is the villain’s perspective? How is it seen by others?
-Structuring the villain’s arc as a version of the hero’s journey
-Can you think you’re a hero with the wrong information that makes you a villain?
-Are you a hero or a villain based on the status quo? Example: Colonists seen as villains by the British Empire in the American Civil War.
[41:39] Sponsor #2: J. Clifton Slater’s Muted Implications (Clay Warrior Book 12) [https://amzn.to/2YMCETB]
[43:30] Main Event—Antagonists, continued! Example: Cigarette Man from The X-Files [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0106179/]
-The decline of the ‘Freak of the Week’ episodic villain stories and the long arc of antagonist/villain Example: Battlestar Galactica reboot [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0407362/] Example: Babylon 5 [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0105946/]
-Villains who are meant to be a ‘Pinnacle Villain’ but turn out to be not all that massively villainous because he’s overly humanized. Example: Raoul Silva in Skyfall [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt1074638/] Example: Daenerys Targaryen in Game of Thrones [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0944947/]
-Sadistic villains Example: Dolores Umbridge in JK Rowling’s Harry Potter series [https://amzn.to/2YSomBd] Example: Hands of Blue in Firefly [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0303461/]
-The polite villain. Example: Hans Gruber in Die Hard [https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0095016/]
-Alan Rickman’s great villain performances as Hans Gruber, Sheriff of Nottingham, and even Severus Snape. Example: Darth Vader in Star Wars [https://www.imdb.com/star-wars/]
-The difference in the ‘original’ Vader of the original trilogy and the ‘origin story’ Vader of the prequel trilogy.
-Severus Snape as the ‘gray hero’ and trying to judge Rowling’s characters as adults vs. how they were written for children and the evolution of her writing from the first novel to the last.
[1:11:45] Closing remarks
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